ADRIAN MA, HOST:
Allegations of abusive behavior by one of the world's most celebrated chefs are forcing fresh conversations about toxic work culture in restaurants. Chef Rene Redzepi, the creative mind behind the acclaimed restaurant Noma in Copenhagen, says he's stepping aside after leading it for 23 years. And that's after The New York Times published a story in which former employees said he bullied and physically assaulted them. NPR has not independently verified these claims. Restaurants, of course, are somewhat notorious for being places where abusive and exploitative behavior too often gets a pass.
And here to discuss why and what might be done about it, we're joined now by two industry veterans. Kenji Lopez-Alt, who's a cookbook writer who's worked in many restaurants - thanks for being here, Kenji.
KENJI LOPEZ-ALT: Thanks for having me.
MA: And Hannah Selinger, who's a writer and author of "Cellar Rat," a memoir about her time working in New York City Fine Dining. Thanks for being here, Hannah.
HANNAH SELINGER: Thank you so much for having me.
MA: So to start off, I think some folks hearing about this story - how Chef Redzepi allegedly screamed at and sort of ritually humiliated and even physically assaulted his staff, it sounds kind of extreme. Were either of you surprised by what you read? Kenji, let's start with you.
LOPEZ-ALT: No. I mean, I've heard about Rene's reputation for a long time, and certainly, I've - you know, I've worked for chefs who were screamers or at some point in their past were both screamers and violent. No, it's not surprising. It's - I mean, I'm not even sure that it's very surprising to other people given, you know, shows like "The Bear" or Gordon Ramsay's very public verbal humiliations, you know, making an entire career out of that. It's - the stuff you see on TV is just sort of the tip of the iceberg of what goes on in a lot of these restaurants. And generally, the more vaunted the restaurant, the worse the abuse is going to be.
MA: Hannah, what about you? What did you think when you heard about these revelations?
SELINGER: Yeah, I think that's fair. I personally knew people who worked for Rene, and I knew some of these allegations as far back as six years ago, maybe longer. As someone who suffered under, you know, very public chefs and who wrote about them myself, obviously, this wasn't a surprise. You know, I think the surprising part for me personally was that it took so long for these allegations to make it to The New York Times. You know, it was sort of, like, an open secret. And I guess one of my questions is, why did it take legacy media so long to disclose it?
MA: You've both worked at some very high-profile restaurants for well-known chefs, but it's worth acknowledging that this kind of behavior doesn't just happen in those kinds of establishments. What would you say are some of the obstacles restaurant employees might face when it comes to speaking up about bad behavior? Hannah, why don't you continue?
SELINGER: Well, there are many different obstacles. Some are that chefs have nondisclosure agreements. David Chang, whom I worked for, had nondisclosure agreements for some members of his staff. Another is blackballing, which is technically illegal and also really common in the restaurant industry.
MA: And we should just say David Chang - a celebrity chef who has sort of publicly talked about how he often blew his temper up and yelled at employees.
SELINGER: Yes, and has faced almost no consequences for any of his behavior, I should just add to that.
MA: All of this, I think, begs the question of what might be done to try and change restaurant culture so it's better for employees. Kenji, in response to this week's news, you posted on Instagram some of the rules that you instituted when you opened your restaurant Wursthall. And you say, these are rules that are intended to try and prevent this kind of toxic kitchen culture from forming. So could you tell us about a couple of those?
LOPEZ-ALT: Well, I mean, there are a few basic ones, and I think these are rules that - you know, that would be a given in any sort of professional environment that, for some reason, are overlooked in restaurants. But, you know, restaurants can be intense places, but they should never be hostile or abusive. And so, you know, some of our basic rules was, there's no yelling at people unless - you know, you can yell to be heard during service 'cause, you know, if you're a chef and you're calling someone down the line, like, you can raise your voice, but there's no raising your voice in anger.
There's no public dressing down. So you can praise people in public, but if you need to talk to someone about a problem, you wait until after service, or you pull them aside when there's a moment, and you address that problem. And it's always addressing the issue. You talk about what needs to be fixed and - rather than turning it into a personal failing of the cook or the server.
And then there was also a no cursing rule. And that's the one that people are like, wait, no cursing in the kitchen? And, you know, to be clear, it's like, all right, if you grab a hot pan accidentally and you slip out a curse because you hurt yourself, like, that was fine. But it was really more just a no hostile language towards each other. And it was even if you're just kind of joking around because when that kind of language becomes commonplace or accepted, it's easy to then slip into territory where you might start saying things that are offensive to other people that are in the room or where people might feel intimidated. And so, you know, for us, it was just no cursing period when you're talking to other people.
MA: Hannah, what changes would you like to see the industry make to make things better for workers?
SELINGER: I mean, I agree with everything that Kenji says. I also think that journalists have an ethical responsibility to stop propping up chefs as deities and to do more research into how they are positioning these restaurants and these chefs. You know, we created Noma. We created Momofuku. I say we...
MA: We...
SELINGER: ...Because I am a member of the media. We made these people famous without going behind the line to see what it was like working there. And, you know, I wasn't the one writing the reviews. I was working in the restaurants at the time because, you know, I'm 45, and this was 20 years ago. But it's irresponsible to make these people into movie stars when we don't know how they're treating their staff. You know, restaurants are places where we go communally, and we enjoy each other, and we enjoy food, and, you know, we get together and we sort of exist in society. And it doesn't have to be a place where fame is sourced. And I think that might be sort of somewhere that we can shift the narrative.
MA: We've been speaking with writer Hannah Selinger and cookbook author Kenji Lopez-Alt. Thank you both for taking the time.
LOPEZ-ALT: Thank you for having us.
SELINGER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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